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I'm not even arguing the literalist bent, which is a whole other mess. Literalist or not, you must accept it as inerrant, complete, and free of contradiction. If you do not, you admit that morality may be found outside that book, or that any of its moral teachings are in any way dubious, you open the door to collateral attacks.
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Nope.JonBrescia said:Literalist or not, you must accept it as inerrant, complete, and free of contradiction.
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Then you've a much harder row to hoe when arguing the validity of your moral scheme, and you can no longer appeal to universal absolutism. (And that's just what you lose in argument situations; how much deviation the Christian god might or might not allow is a serious question, and if you're relying on him and him alone to ensure you a placid, favorable eternity, it probably helps to not fuck up. You see how he treated Aaron's sons when they offered strange fire. That guy's crazy.)
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JonBrescia said:
Then you've a much harder row to hoe when arguing the validity of your moral scheme, and you can no longer appeal to universal absolutism. (And that's just what you lose in argument situations; how much deviation the Christian god might or might not allow is a serious question, and if you're relying on him and him alone to ensure you a placid, favorable eternity, it probably helps to not fuck up. You see how he treated Aaron's sons when they offered strange fire. That guy's crazy.)
Not to appear defensive of a religion that's caused me no end of headaches in life, but we are taught from elementary school that the New Testament is the "new contract" with God, and a lot of what the Old Testament teaches is less "canon," for lack of a better word. It's like the Pre-Crisis/Post Crisis DC universe. The old Superman had 10 commandments, the new Superman had 2: love God with all your heart, and love your neighbor as yourself. However, just like comic books, we have fans of the old stuff that fuck things up for the rest of us. Freaking religion hipsters.
And just in my lifetime alone, the Church has retconned away a lot of shit. Do you realize there isn't even a Purgatory anymore? Unbaptised babies go straight to heaven now, there's no waiting list!
I understand the whole thing is pretty ridiculous, but having been taught and exposed to a lot of these inconsistencies does give me a lot more sympathy for people of other faiths who some people judge entirely by what the text of their books say.
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I don't know, Jon. I'm sure there are plenty of liberal Christians who don't believe that the Bible is inerrant, complete, and free of contradiction. Then again, they are also not likely to be familiar with the story of Jepthah or the sons of Aaron or any of the avalanche of morally repugnant mythology that comprises the Old Testament, as many of them have never read it.
There are at least three places in the New Testament that some people use to justify their persecution of homosexuals (Romans 1:26-27, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, and 1 Timothy 1:9-10). A lot of the liberal Christians I've talked to fall back on the fact that nothing about homosexuality is mentioned in the teachings specifically attributed to Jesus of Nazareth. I suppose they simply ignore the other parts that actively call for persecution.
The larger problem, as I see it, is that those who base their ethics on the idea of divine fiat have no recourse when their deity commands them to do something unethical, such as persecute homosexuals. They think they are doing a moral good. And they aren't allowed to question their supreme authority, often out of fear of eternal consequences. -
RobotBastard said:
Maybe I was flip, there, but there always seems to be this attitude like the person has uncovered this amazing terrible secret that nobody had ever known about and they gotta tell everyone right away. I mean, it's kind of cute to realize that this is maybe the first overtly-political decision that some people have ever made, and you can understand how they're excited, but after a while it's like "okay yeah, you know you aren't the first person to do this, right?"
Gee Mike, not everyone can go, "I was hating Chik-fil-A before it was cool." Way to be a fast food religion hipster. -
http://www.andrewrilstone.com/2012/06/that-would-be-ecumenical-matter.html
Speaking of gay marriage, Christianity, and such, I highly recommend this series of blogposts by one Andrew Rilstone (the one I've linked to is a prologue of sorts to the actual 4 post essay, so just go from here). -
When the storm lifts and I go home, I will link the letters my friends and I exchanged on the subject of Christian morality. I think they are worthwhile reads.
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Gokiburi_Chachacha said:
I don't know, Jon. I'm sure there are plenty of liberal Christians who don't believe that the Bible is inerrant, complete, and free of contradiction. Then again, they are also not likely to be familiar with the story of Jepthah or the sons of Aaron or any of the avalanche of morally repugnant mythology that comprises the Old Testament, as many of them have never read it.
There are at least three places in the New Testament that some people use to justify their persecution of homosexuals (Romans 1:26-27, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, and 1 Timothy 1:9-10). A lot of the liberal Christians I've talked to fall back on the fact that nothing about homosexuality is mentioned in the teachings specifically attributed to Jesus of Nazareth. I suppose they simply ignore the other parts that actively call for persecution.
The larger problem, as I see it, is that those who base their ethics on the idea of divine fiat have no recourse when their deity commands them to do something unethical, such as persecute homosexuals. They think they are doing a moral good. And they aren't allowed to question their supreme authority, often out of fear of eternal consequences.
The fact that they cite Saint Paul is pretty hilarious when just a few chapters earlier, prior to his conversion, St. Paul was pretty gung-ho about rounding up and killing Catholics. It's like...maybe we don't take our cues about murdering from the guy who likes to murder so much, you know?
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The fact that Paul had a hateboner for Christians, but then miraculously didn't, is kind of the whole point of that story. You've never gone so far that you can't go back. (But it's also true that you've never gone so far that you can't go further.)
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"A lot of the liberal Christians I've talked to fall back on the fact that nothing about homosexuality is mentioned in the teachings specifically attributed to Jesus of Nazareth."
Considering that this "Jesus commands, Man suggests" philosophy is one of the underpinnings of the Protestant faith, I'd say they're entirely in keeping with historical tradition to think that way.
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"Way to be a fast food religion hipster."
I don't think I can top that line, so I'll give you the win here. -
Pretty sure Paul is pretty gung-ho about hating women before AND after conversion, so he's not exactly my homie.
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RobotBastard said:
The fact that Paul had a hateboner for Christians, but then miraculously didn't, is kind of the whole point of that story. You've never gone so far that you can't go back. (But it's also true that you've never gone so far that you can't go further.
Yes, but the point I'm making is that the target of his hate isn't so telling as what he does with those feelings once he has them. If Paul recommends that homosexuals be put to death, I have to wonder if he doesn't also have a boner for killing. I'm just saying, maybe we put him on bread and wine duty instead of having him decide what to do with people who are different from us.
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I am just subbing in Paul Chapman every time you reference St. Paul. It's pretty great.
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Yeah, that was my first thought about knin's post, which kind of threw me for a loop.
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Oh, haha! Yes, I meant Paul the Apostle, not Paul the Gooberzilla.
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From saint to mere podcaster in 2'20". Quite the precipitous fall.
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After clicking on Xeno's link, I found this story:
http://www.tampabay.com/news/publicsafety/crime/largo-puppeteer-arrested-in-federal-kidnapping-conspiracy-child-porn-case/1241906
I know this guy. I worked alongside him when I was younger. He often helped out at the Frog Prince Puppetry Arts theater, where I studied acting and puppetry for most of my childhood. He always struck me as a gentle, kind-hearted person.
Just goes to show how you can think that you know somebody, and still have no idea what's really going on inside their head. -
Holy shit! That is really fucked up, dude.
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Everyone always wonders why modern mothers are scared of letting their kids walk around alone, or play out in the backyard, and you know what? People like this guy are why they're scared.
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Remember how those 3d printers were going to destroy copyright and wreck the scarcity-based capitalist society? They're also going to make gun control impossible.
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Richard Muller renounces any support for the denial of man-made global warming.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/30/opinion/the-conversion-of-a-climate-change-skeptic.html?_r=2CALL me a converted skeptic. Three years ago I identified problems in previous climate studies that, in my mind, threw doubt on the very existence of global warming. Last year, following an intensive research effort involving a dozen scientists, I concluded that global warming was real and that the prior estimates of the rate of warming were correct. I’m now going a step further: Humans are almost entirely the cause. -
“I was never a skeptic” – Richard Muller, 2011
“If Al Gore reaches more people and convinces the world that global warming is real, even if he does it through exaggeration and distortion – which he does, but he’s very effective at it – then let him fly any plane he wants.” – Richard Muller, 2008
“There is a consensus that global warming is real. …it’s going to get much, much worse.” – Richard Muller, 2006
“Let me be clear. My own reading of the literature and study of paleoclimate suggests strongly that carbon dioxide from burning of fossil fuels will prove to be the greatest pollutant of human history. It is likely to have severe and detrimental effects on global climate.” – Richard Muller, 2003 -
Doesn't surprise me at all. This doesn't, either: "In a list of the top 20 countries experiencing “global flight wealth,” China ranks as number one with $1.19 trillion. It is followed by Russia, Korea, Brazil and Kuwait."
When people complain about how complicated the tax code is and how there's all this bullshit you have to do and why can't we just have something nice and simple like "send a check for thirty percent of your income"? Stuff like this is why.
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I still own my print copy of the Internal Revenue Code. It functions well as a counterweight for hoisting engine blocks.
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Verizon forbidden to charge for tethering (using 4G LTE service, at least.)
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Hoshit.
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Several benefits for women go into effect today as a result of the healthcare reform law. Mike Kelly, Republican Rep. for PA, recently compared these benefits (which include cancer screenings without co-pay requirements as well as free birth control) to Pearl Harbor and September 11th. Which...I don't know, I'd like to think that there are some people out there who support not dying of cancer as well as supporting thousands of Americans, possibly their own family members, not being murdered in a terrorist attack. I believe those opinions are not mutually exclusive. Just, you know, there might be a significant crossover between people who think cancer is bad, and people who think terrorism is bad, so you might want to temper your words a bit, Rep. Kelly.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/01/mike-kelly-birth-control-mandate_n_1729242.html -
What's new? These people need to be dragged into the street and beaten to death yesterday.
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People who compare the US to Nazi Germany because of the DMCA, though, they're entirely serious and their opinion ought to be considered carefully.
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America and free speech.
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What's that related to?
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Your pollies sprouting crap and face no repercussions.
Probably more apt to say america and individualism. -
RobotBastard said:
People who compare the US to Nazi Germany because of the DMCA, though, they're entirely serious and their opinion ought to be considered carefully.
Please let me know the elected officials who have said this. -
RobotBastard said:
People who compare the US to Nazi Germany because of the DMCA, though, they're entirely serious and their opinion ought to be considered carefully.
I'm glad you said this, because between slavery, 9/11, and Pearl Harbor, The Republicans have found a way to out-Godwin Godwin's Law on Healthcare reform. People who were legitimate, elected leaders in the party. Those who aren't calling for armed revolt, anyway.
People who witnessed the hell of September 11th firsthand and have lost family are still alive, and I think Republicans should know better. Just as they should know better when they accuse the first black President of America of perpetuating something that is worse than slavery.
