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Law related crap
  • What was his actual reasoning? I could, you know, read it for myself but meh I don't feel like it. It had basically to do with corporate personhood yes? I don't really get extending the corporation as person analogy farther than necessary, its a legal fiction to make things easier when dealing with a corporate entity, why that ought to come with constitutional protection for speech is beyond me. Then again I guess it could get muddy if your thinking about organizations that are incorporated but exist for a mainly political purpose so yeah.
  • Then again I guess it could get muddy if your[sic] thinking about organizations that are incorporated but exist for a mainly political purpose so yeah.

    Yes, that's it exactly. All that McCain-Feingold did was force people to get creative in how they spent their money. I guess you could see that as a "corporate speech fee", if you really want, but it also means that small businesses aren't allowed to make donations because they can't afford to form a 527 group. It's yet another regulation that winds up being a net benefit to large corporations because it's a fixed fee that everyone has to pay.
  • All that explains is why you think the law was a bad idea, which has nothing to do with whether or not it was unconstitutional.
  • I should actually re-read the opinion today, so I'll start on that over brunch. In the meantime, here's what I wrote to my old law school buddy a week after the decision (and before I'd read all the concurrences/dissents, clearly). It may be of some value.

    The majority overruled two cases: Austin in whole and McConnell in part. The cases both touched on the issue of campaign-related expenditures during the 30 or 60 (depending upon statutory factors) day window before an election, which the Bipartisan Campaign Reform Act (BCRA) explicitly prohibited ex. corporations, unions, and non-profit entities. I still need to read Stevens' dissent. That'll come on Sunday or Monday, as time permits. The majority opinion seems pretty ironclad, but it plays to my weak spot: liberal First Amendment jurisprudence. I haven't studied the history of the specific cases at issue well enough (or I may have, but have since forgotten -- I did write one of my two seminar papers for Brad Smith in Election Law, and I focused on Buckley v. Valeo and FECA, so I should have come across _some_ of these decisions, though some important ones were decided during/after that time, Wisconsin Right to Life among them), but it seems to me that creating an "antidistortion" exception to the 1A is dangerous. Further, the point that really stuck out to me was this single item among a litany of indictments by Kennedy: the BCRA banned expenditures during that window by all those incorporated groups, but it specifically exempted organizations that had ownership of a media outlet. If I read the opinion correctly: presuming a smelting business incorporated, then bought out a newspaper, it would be free as a media conglomerate to pump out expenditures during the restricted window. That's what Kennedy seemed to be saying. He kept highlighting the inequity of the statute toward the prohibited group, which he saw as one step beyond the egregiousness of dividing speech into multiple types. (What about the Slippery Slope argument from the division of speech into Obscene and Not Obscene? Where does the fear that "[w]ere the Court to uphold these restrictions, the Government could repress speech by silencing certain voices at any of the various points in the speech process" begin and end, and why? What makes all the other divisions of Speech (Kennedy himself uses the term "political speech" a blue million times during the opinion, by the way) benign and this one (corporate political speech) malignant?)

    I also found the following quote from the majority opinion to be highly disingenuous:

    Section 441b is a ban on corporate speech notwithstand-
    ing the fact that a PAC created by a corporation can still
    speak. See McConnell, 540 U. S., at 330–333 (opinion of
    KENNEDY, J.). A PAC is a separate association from the
    corporation. So the PAC exemption from §441b’s expendi-
    ture ban, §441b(b)(2), does not allow corporations to speak.

    It's the functional equivalent of saying, "Because I am mute, I have to hand write a note and have Susie read it aloud. That means she is speaking, not me." It's an abrupt shift in the definition of the word "speak" and its related forms; previously, speech was being used in the case in the way we now think of it legally (any form of communication made by an entity, whether film, audio, writing, etc.), but here Kennedy shifts to the technical definition of the term, essentially saying that because the Corporation is not producing from its corpus the actual messages (because Susie Pac has to read the notes for Corpie), the Corporation isn't actually speaking, nevermind that they funded the speech and no doubt designed it. It's as disingenuous as putting a Pepsi label on urine and attempting to sell it. "It's not urine; see, the attribution is to Pepsi." Bullshit. This is a bad argument.

  • What is the difference between how liberals view the constitution versus conservatives?
  • What is the difference between how liberals view the constitution versus conservatives?



    Well, Jefferson, I'm glad you asked.

    We liberals are all a bunch of godless, baby-killing, communist, secret Muslims, so we view the Constitution as a threat to our plans for bringing about the One World Government under the leadership of the Anti-Christ. :mrgreen:

    In all seriousness, I don't know the answer to that question. I imagine it varies from person to person, based on their understanding of history and their political opinions.
  • [quote="JeffersonPierce"]What is the difference between how liberals view the constitution versus conservatives?
    That's an incredibly open-ended question, first, and it's also a bit of an oversimplification of constitutional jurisprudence, though I will admit that basically everyone still uses that demarcation pretty frequently. Very, very generally, the spectrum can be summed up as the difference between, say, Justice Thomas and Justice Brennan: then-contemporary history must be used to explain every single word (yes, even using dictionary citations and quoting newspapers from 1801 to prove a point) in the document, and the intent of its writers must be taken into account, but it must be construed as narrowly and as restrictively as possible, as it is viewed as a check on authority first, and only second as a (meager) grant of power. On the other end, the document is a living document that must evolve not only by amendment, but also by interpretation as time marches on, the stale old document being less akin to some holy scripture and more akin to a pragmatic view of governance in 1787 and whose provisions should be seen as grants of power first, checks second. But that's all painting with a broad brush. For crim pro jurisprudence, for example, "conservative" justices tend to enhance state authority to apprehend and punish criminals. "Liberal" ones like to enhance individual rights in contravention of state authority. Turn that around and look at second amendment jurisprudence, which shows "conservative" justices enhancing individual rights as far as possible (see: the McDonald case from this year) and "liberal" justices interpreting things so as to grant the state more power in contravention of individual autonomy. Again, this is all broad-brush analysis, but I think it's a good rough explanation.
  • After watching this Charlie Rose episode about the current Supreme Court, I think I have a better understanding.
  • You should also watch this episode because Stephen Breyer is the best and he does talk about left/right in politics and how that differs from what people perceive as left vs right on the court.
  • I've heard of Charlie Rose...

    >.>
  • So as to not further pollute random:
    The idea of the separation of church and state is not a modern invention, at the time of the founding it was something people cared and had opinions about, a lot. And memorial and remonstrance may have related to taxation...but to say it was about coercive taxation, as if thats the end of the story, as if what Madison cared about was paying taxes...is selling it really short.
  • Also Dave yelling WHAT IS INTERNATIONAL SHOE made me lul
  • Regarding church and state, it's worth noting that the Anglican church was still burning people alive for heresy in the 1600s, the Spanish Catholics were roaming about torturing and killing people in the name of the Hay-Seuss, &c., &c. To even include a provision in a document prior to 1800 that said "Oh hey, by the way, let's keep religion and government at a healthy distance from one another" is nigh on unfathomable.

    I'm happy about the International Shoe excitement. Have to introduce him to World Wide Volkswagen next!
  • I don't know, I mean I guess it was pretty radical for the time and I'm no enlightenment scholar but I'm pretty sure those enlightenment types were spending a lot of time thinking about the appropriate relationship between the two. Not to say that the idea of complete disestablishment was what most of them had in mind. Whats the line...something about keeping them apart to preserve the purity of each?
    Also civil procedure was fun. Yeah thats right, I said it.

    EDIT: I'm told it makes for bad internet to quote the post directly above you. WHO KNEW
  • [quote="grumps"]EDIT: I'm told it makes for bad internet to quote the post directly above you. WHO KNEW
    Wait, waht?
  • [quote="xenomouse"][quote="grumps"]EDIT: I'm told it makes for bad internet to quote the post directly above you. WHO KNEW
    Wait, waht?

    That's just Dave being a dick.
  • No, it's actually pretty pointless.
  • I was quoting the post I was replying to, that was directly preceding the post I was about to make. From what I hear it is unnecessary, so I will change my quote happy ways.
    Also FIRST AMENDMENT JURISPRUDENCE! Fun times. Just thought I'd throw that in there.
  • [quote="grumps"]I was quoting the post I was replying to, that was directly preceding the post I was about to make. From what I hear it is unnecessary, so I will change my quote happy ways.
    Also FIRST AMENDMENT JURISPRUDENCE! Fun times. Just thought I'd throw that in there.


    I don't really see the problem and what the fuck is jurisprudence? No, I won't look it up and yes I think you're making up words.
  • Well apparently a Jurisprude is a thing, and that thing is "A person who makes a pretentious display of legal knowledge or who is overzealous about the importance of legal doctrine"
    So every lawyer ever basically.
    And jurisprudence means a bunch of different stuff, in this context, when you say "subject X jurisprudence" it just means the body of precedents that make up the law on subject X.
    I feel like this is a terrible explanation.
  • So a Jurisprude would be a law nazi?
  • [quote="grumps"]Well apparently a Jurisprude is a thing, and that thing is "A person who makes a pretentious display of legal knowledge or who is overzealous about the importance of legal doctrine"
    So every lawyer ever basically.
    And jurisprudence means a bunch of different stuff, in this context, when you say "subject X jurisprudence" it just means the body of precedents that make up the law on subject X.
    I feel like this is a terrible explanation.

    I've often wondered what jurisprudence meant. It gets thrown around a lot by commentators but rarely in a context that makes its meaning clear. Thanks for the explanation.
  • [quote="grumps"]Well apparently a Jurisprude is a thing, and that thing is "A person who makes a pretentious display of legal knowledge or who is overzealous about the importance of legal doctrine"
    So every lawyer ever basically.
    And jurisprudence means a bunch of different stuff, in this context, when you say "subject X jurisprudence" it just means the body of precedents that make up the law on subject X.
    I feel like this is a terrible explanation.

    I've often wondered what jurisprudence meant. It gets thrown around a lot by commentators but rarely in a context that makes its meaning clear. Thanks for the explanation.
  • [quote="grumps"]Also FIRST AMENDMENT JURISPRUDENCE!
    Times 1000!

    In other news, I love how ridiculously we name laws in this country:
    - Antiterrorism and Effective Death Penalty Act
    - Armed Career Criminal Act
    - Railroad Revitalization and Regulatory Reform Act of 1976 ("RRRR")

    Fun Supreme Court stuff:
    http://audio.oyez.org/cases/2010-2019/2010/2010_09_751
    Looks like Fred Phelps is finally being dragged out of his bunker and dragged to DC.

    http://audio.oyez.org/cases/2010-2019/2010/2010_08_1448
    I can't believe this actually persisted as a social issue long enough to reach the Sup Ct. Perhaps Scalia will have something to say about whether or not games are art... >.>
  • Dredging up the corporation angle again, I ran into this paragraph in a book I was reading earlier today (for reference, Where the Law Ends by Christopher Stone). It would have been handy to have during the whole Citizens United talk, but I figured I'd post it despite the significant lapse in time:

    Of course, to set out one's positions on public matters is a right guaranteed by the First Amendment, and one which I do not think should be or could be specially curtailed in the instance of corporations. This is particularly true when one considers that corporations (and trade associations) are well situated to inform on a broad range of public issues. But a corporation's right to speak out should be no license for clandestine and distortive manipulations. The problem is especially acute because while a corporation can be sued for fraud and deception in the sale of goods, there are no effective legal constraints when it is "merely" bamboozling the public, not as their seller, but as their fellow citizen. What this means is that as corporations increasingly engage in opinion-framing activities, [...] just obeying the law simply isn't enough.

  • Phelp's daughter is representing them. I cant freaking wait. I think I started a thread about the Schwarzenegger case when they granted cert, but that was a while ago.
    Man, If they extend the obscenity doctrine to violence shits going to get REAL.
  • All right, G (and anybody else who cares, I guess):

    I always want to claim to be a First Amendment absolutist. I can't do it in good conscience, though, because I really do like laws governing fraud/misrepresentation, that sort of thing. How far toward the absolutist pole are you, and what things in particular do you think are vital areas of speech to regulate? Acceptable areas? I'm always torn in the defamation context. I just don't know how to feel. High school taught me that sometimes the cure for speech is kicking someone's ass, and I guess defamation is the Gentleman's Equivalent, but I'm so conflicted!
  • [quote="grumps"]... I think I started a thread about the Schwarzenegger case when they granted cert, but that was a while ago.
    Man, If they extend the obscenity doctrine to violence shits going to get REAL.
    I heard somewhere that similar laws to the California one were smacked down by the courts. How will this one be different? I can't see the creation of a miller-like test to define something as "violent". Such a standard would be too vague. "I know it when I see it" won't work. Bugs Bunny cartoons are violent. A football game is violent. Hunting is violent. Where does it end?

    Besides, is there really a need for this law. The average age for gamers is 35. The video game industry does an exceptional job identifying mature content, compared to MPAA they are light years ahead.
  • I haven't followed a lot of the video game suit news, so I'd have to dig up the case names and then read the opinions. For want of time, I'll just run with your statement as a fundamental assumption.

    How would this law be different? Dunno. You'd have to stack the statutes side by side and compare them. There could be special exceptions built in to try and anticipate and defuse the arguments that worked in previous constitutional challenges. A smart drafter would use every previous loss to show him the boundaries within which his legislation may be safe.

    If the Miller Test isn't too vague for obscenity, why would it be too vague for violence? The same measures of gradation exist, don't they? For the benefit of anyone reading who is not familiar with the Miller Test, it is:

    [list][*]Applying contemporary community standards, does the work appeal to the prurient interest?[/*:m]
    [*]Applying contemporary community standards, is the work patently offensive sexual material as described by applicable state law?[/*:m]
    [*]Does the work, taken as a whole, lack serious artistic, scientific, etc. value?[/*:m][/list:u]

    I don't think anybody is going to bring back the old Potter Stewart line; its vagueness far outstrips the Miller Test, though it is (I think) far more honest. Seriously, I love when a judge/justice is willing to say "I don't have any fucking clue." I like honesty.

    The thing to keep in mind here, though, is that we're dealing with a very conservative Sup Ct. While conservatives hate sex in any form, they do love murder. Liberals love fucking but are generally too high to support violent behavior. (Yes, hypergeneralization, but you get the point I'm actually trying to make.) So we're in a good spot for the case to go our way (our group here being neither right, nor left, but simply correct).
  • So can anybody give me the highlights of the recent Financial Reform Bill, and the protection that we stand to lose if it's repealed? I know for Healthcare reform, I was most concerned about losing the protection against pre-existing condition discrimination, but I didn't pay as much attention to the Financial Reform.
  • A rare victory for justice. It's a good thing that this man's obvious innocence has been vindicated in court. Hopefully the remainder of those held unjustly, without trial, will finally receive their day in court and walk out as free men once more. Because, I mean, that's what it's all about, right?
  • Cut the crap. The fellow was convicted on one charge, which carries a sentence of up to 20 years.

    [quote="the article"]Prosecutors, to a certain extent, also may have taken for granted that a New York jury would favor them. The Ghailani verdict flies in the face of that. The jury weighed the evidence against someone prosecutors said time and again was a member of al-Qaida and played a role in a major terrorist attack. But the jury just wasn't convinced.
    Sounds like the prosecutors dropped the ball.
  • To Dreg's earlier question: I honestly have no idea what to say about financial matters. I'd be a poor interpreter of the reform bill and/or its repeal. Sorry!

    To RB's link & comments: I'll need to read more on the case itself to provide meaningful commentary about it. What I can say in an off-the-cuff way about the philosophical points raised here is this: Yes, ideally, a well-ordered society establishes principles of justice, tailors its laws to comport with those principles, and constructs/conducts its institutions in a manner befitting these principles. For humans to make a well-ordered society is probably impossible, not just now, but ever. To our credit (at least in my opinion), we keep trying anyway. The American system, clearly neither the first nor the best incarnation of a system of justice, has chosen some rough principles that can be divined from its founding documents, its full legislative history, and hundreds of years of jurisprudence. That we require burdens of proof and presumptions of innocence are not accidents of history or miscarriages of justice perpetrated by mid-20th century reformer justices. These concepts stem from a desire to err on the side of freeing the guilty, not jailing the innocent. That the rules can sometimes lead to confounding problems, that they can lead to apparent deviations from what one perceives as "just," is a feature of any human law; we make this shit up as we go along, and it definitely isn't perfect. The greater point, though, can only be seen by pulling back a bit. Don't look at the case and start weighing the accused. Don't look at the outcome and think, "That isn't how I'd have decided." Don't think, "But that isn't how I interpret the evidence." Instead, look at it and say, "That this man could be accused, correctly or incorrectly, of terrible crimes and not be shot the moment he was captured shows a measure of restraint and respect for human life." The very adherence to the mechanisms of justice, presuming they are calibrated to be reasonably in line with a society's principles of justice, demonstrates that a society still perceives the difference between just and unjust. In a world where my worth as a person, indeed my very identity as a human being may be stripped from me in any number of ways, from the humiliating to the fatal, I am always heartened to see an affirmation of essential human dignity, especially where it should be least likely to manifest.
  • [quote="xenomouse"]Sounds like the prosecutors dropped the ball.According to the article, the judge required that most of the evidence be thrown out--including repeated confessions and corroborations by other witnesses--because it was obtained by "enhanced interrogation methods".

    The fun part is where Holder says that the jury verdict doesn't matter, even if he'd been found innocent of all counts, because he could still be held as an "enemy combatant". So in their attempt to seem less draconian than the Bush administration, the Obama administration has now moved to a worse position. That's not the change we were looking for!
  • To expand a bit on the Ghailani trial, here's a slightly more detailed article at Bloomberg Businessweek. I'm sure even better articles exist, but I'm a bit short on time.

    My previous philosophical comments still stand, but in reading some articles closely last night, the one horrifying thing for me was, as RB pointed out, Eric Holder's comment. "Holder said Mohammed could be held indefinitely, as an enemy combatant, even if a jury didn't convict." I'm disgusted by the very suggestion. And let's not even touch on the philosophical problems raised by this sort of thinking. Let's look at a more practical point, something that judges and lawyers talk about regularly but which the public knows or cares very little about: judicial economy. There are only so many courtrooms, so many judges, etc. Docket load has been cripplingly high and swelling for twenty years (primarily young black fellows being picked up on, let's be honest, spurious or frivolous charges -- all right now, I'm just being bitter), and obesity proves no more salubrious for justice than for human bodies. So Holder & Co. are content stuffing a 285-count case into the enormously overworked Southern District of New York under the pretense of meting out justice, but with, apparently, all the ill intentions of a shell game operator. If the jury's verdict doesn't matter, Mr. Holder, please, don't waste public servants' time putting on a show.

    I am delighted by all of the positive things about American justice that this case exemplifies; I am saddened by the highest prosecutor in the land making such an unpalatable statement.
  • DNS seizures are some crazy shit.
  • I wrote something lengthy. It was self-absorbed and full of bitterness. I thought better of it.

    I'll defend our processes as being exceedingly fair by comparison to most modern institutions. Even so, there are problems, and I have gripes. Mostly, my problems are philosophical, and this issue is definitely one about which I feel serious conflict. I don't have answers.

    What do you folks think?
  • The worst part about this is that they are seizing domains because somebody complained about it. Not because they were convicted of breaking laws but because somebody said I don't like that.
  • [quote="exagenous"]The worst part about this is that they are seizing domains because somebody complained about it. Not because they were convicted of breaking laws but because somebody said I don't like that.
    Well, according to the posted link, they're claiming that they did have a warrant and it was properly served at the ICANN level.
  • Ok I didn't see the updates about the warrants.
  • On one hand I can't say I surprised. Piracy is a major issue, and quite a few industries are losing millions if not more because of it. I've worked with people who have bragged about who much they pirate music, movies, and games to the point where they hadn't paid for any such entertainment since high school. So I understand why the government would do this. I'm not sure if I feel their actions are right though, even those these sites support what is more or less illegal activities. For now I'm just going to keep an eye on what happens, before I start accusing people of being nazis. On the other hand, I do really hate paying for porn...
  • What do you guys think of wikileaks?
  • Well as much as people want it to go away that isn't going to happen, even if you kill Assange (or he dies of mysterious circumstances) they are already set up to keep dumping those files.
  • [quote="Digitalguardian"]What do you guys think of wikileaks?
    I think it's absolutely hilarious that Manning's big kamikaze swan-dive Limiter Off attack, the action that's going to send him to Federal Pound-Me-In-The-Ass Prison for the rest of his life, revealed that:

    *The Chinese want to hack everything
    *The Pakistanis are a bunch of bastards
    *If anything, the USA's position on Iran is moderate

    He can't possibly have read these things he leaked; otherwise he'd have kept his mouth shut.
  • I fear for the day when 4chan becomes a political party.
  • http://i834.photobucket.com/albums/zz269/TheSavage68/KEIKAKUDOORI.png
  • I do have to say that 4chan is doing an excellent job of convincing people that anonymity on the internet is a bad thing and shouldn't be permitted. :sigh: